The Real Reason Men Self-Sabotage in Sobriety

Why Relapse Isn’t About Weakness

Justin: Most men don't relapse because they're weak. They relapse because they're scared of who they become. Hey, my name is Justin Franch to Rebuilding Life After Addiction. I'm excited to welcome you all to another conversation. I'm here with my friend Rob Reynolds. And um, if this conversation helps you at all, I just want to encourage you to subscribe so that you don't miss out on the next conversation. And I'm excited to talk about this topic today, Rob, talking about the idea of relapse and why men tend to self-sabotage. I think many of us, both of us, have probably seen guys walk through the journey of their lives, they get to a point where they're free, they're healed, seem like the Lord is doing something, and then they end up just falling right back into the mess. And you're like, they have everything going for them. There's really no reason that they should relapse. And so, man, maybe to kick the conversation off, what do you think one of the biggest lies that you see men start to believe right as they start to make some progress? Right? They they're starting to get their family back, they're getting their lives back, they're on this path to recovery and freedom, and then something pops up to just kill their progress.

Guest: Uh, it's frustrating when you watch it over and over because when you see people really doing well, and then all of a sudden they like disappear. And I I think one is that,

The First Big Lie: “I’ve Got This”

Guest: and you know as well as I do, even running recovery homes four to five months into things. So I think even when you get out of recovery home, four to five months of doing well, and all of a sudden you feel like you've got it, and it's like, okay, I can quit doing the things that I'm doing, which is what you know, and and I don't mean to be mean in these statements, but it's like a normal Christian that has been in church most of their life could probably survive if they slack a little bit on their Bible reading and all. But when the devil's had a hold of you in some kind of addiction or whatever it was for so long that you've been trapped up in that to just come out of it and then think, hey, a couple months in I'm good. I can just go back to being me and normal, and and you can't. You can't go back to that and slack on what's kept you you know free for you know, you just get in a in a thing of being comfortable. Yeah, because like, okay, I'm good now. This is a lifelong process and transformation to become like Jesus and be free, and and then we can't just lay down after a few months. I think that's one thing.

Justin: Yeah, so you would say that like the those I'm good, I can go, I can go do the things that I used to do. If I used to be the partier, I used to be known as X, Y, or Z, insert those things there. Then we almost try to like we see people try to go back and still almost try to hold on to that old label or that old identity, right? And and they don't they don't

Clinging To Old Labels And Crowds

Justin: shed that. And so they carry that lie with them into their new life, and and uh it's almost like a comfort zone thing, it would seem, you know, like like I'm I'm okay being this, I'm okay doing this. When reality is that like this transformation, that old life, all those old labels, like they gotta be left at the cross, you know, and and allowing some of that stuff to to strip away and fall off. And so why would you what would you say? Um why do you think men cling to those old identities?

Guest: Again, it they still, and Jesus says, you know, you gotta you gotta deny yourself, pick up your cross, follow you. Like you said, all the old labels have to go, but it it's still, even though the destruction and chaos was there, it still became part of who they were, as far as who they hang around and the places they went. And so they feel they can still do that, yeah, still be a part of that because of some I think it all boils down to like this insecurity on the inside of needing to have people like them or be around a certain popular people. You know, it still comes with that, and even though even though we were in destructive mode and our addiction, we had a crowd, we had friends, we had what we thought were friends anyway, and so there was this need to be liked and loved by people, and if that doesn't get centered in being loved by Christ and your identity in him, you'll still look for that, you know, and even celebrate recovery will call it people pleasing, stuff like that. And I'm not bashing that's what it is. So you get in this place of needing people to like you or whatever because of it for not being whole in Christ, right? And so you you want to be around the same crowd thinking, or you think I can go win them all to Jesus right away. Right. Yeah, you know what I mean, and you're not really strong enough to go back to them things. I've watched that happen time and time and time again. Yeah, it's good now. I've got a year sober, and you know, in infancy and baby Christian, you know, you need a couple years to really ground yourself. I didn't go back to Martinsburg until I was two or three years strong before I went back around the same people, you know, and I was on fire for Jesus, but I knew that I had to really be grounded and have no insecurities really left where I could go back in there.

Justin: And it's that awkwardness too, right? Because like the people that aren't doing drugs, the people that are good for me, Christians, followers of Christ, that maybe don't necessarily have my backstory. They don't it we almost get nervous to spend time around those people. And so what do we end up doing? Like, well, I I need to be liked, I need to be loved. And

Fear Of Responsibility And The Pile

Justin: the folks that know who we used to be, there's like a comfort, there's like a comfort going and spending time with them, right? So these folks aren't gonna judge me because of my past because they're still using. So it almost it's almost like a superiority feeling, you know. Well, I'm look what I'm not doing. I'm not doing that anymore. And I go back and I feel better about myself going to spend time around people who are not as far along in this journey as I am. I mean, that's I know it sounds crazy, but it it happens. It's like this insecurity that we're fighting through. And and rather than shedding off that old identity and that old label, you know, and and putting ourselves into a new place where we can move forward, we end up going back to those places that are comfortable so often.

Guest: Well, yeah, like you can relate it even to like if you was ever a kid and switched schools. Yeah. You know what I mean? You had to switch you had to make all new friends, you had to learn all new things and clicks and everything. So it's like when you come out of this old life and you throw it off and you go over to the new, like you're saying, now you're the new kid in the class. You're the new kid in the church, you feel awkward, nobody really knows you, and if they know anything, they probably know you come out of a a bad situation, so you feel like they kind of look at you, even if they don't, you feel like they look at you differently because you're the new guy and you had issues, so you feel prejudged, even though you might not be.

Guest: Right.

Guest: But we carry that stigma with us into that, and then we think, oh, well, these guys have been in church all their life. They don't how am I gonna relate to them? How can I walk this new life when I don't know anything about it? And that's the scary transition from A to B. Right. The in-between, but you just have to go through that. It's awkward. You have to go through it with people, find one or two. You have to find one or two people that you can build some kind of bond with to just stick with, and eventually, you know, you'll get around the other ones and feel more comfortable. But it just it just takes time, and that's the hard part.

Justin: Well, and Paul talks about that a lot, right? He he he doesn't he doesn't acknowledge or not acknowledge that, like, hey, you were once this, right? You used to be that. That's your old identity, that's the old label, but it's not who you are anymore. And so there's this acknowledgement, even in the scripture, like, hey, yeah, I was an addict, and it's okay. I used to be that, but it's not who I am anymore. And there's a there's a lot of fear that comes in making that transition. And and one of the things we were talking about offline prior to the conversation was like, look, I I understand the purpose of the first step, the whole powerless thing. I I get it, because I was unable to save myself. I had to call out to the Lord, the Lord saved me. But then after we acknowledge that, there's a whole lot of personal responsibility that comes, right, in putting our lives back together. And I I think what I'm hearing

The Cycle Of Self‑Sabotage

Justin: hearing you say a little bit is there's a lot of fear that comes in moving forward in this new life, and really a lot of fear of responsibility. There's a whole lot of that. And so, why would you say that responsibility is so intimidating for somebody coming out of the lifestyle of addiction?

Guest: Because we didn't have any. We threw it all out the window, you know what I mean? I mean, I didn't take care of my kids well, I barely paid bills when I was really strung out, like I didn't care. And so now you're stepping into this new life, and you have to go right into being a responsible adult. That's scary, and that fear will drive you right back to where you used to be because it is different. And I was somebody was talking to me um, I think at one of the recovery meetings I do, and they were like, Well, you don't understand. I have this pro charge, and I have, you know, fines and restitutions, and I have this, and I have an ankle brake. And I and they were going on and on and on. Like, they're like, How did you do it? I'm like, the reality was I knew I put myself in these situations, and I knew where I wanted to go, and I knew it was going to be hard work. And you just said, like, we just got to say, okay, I'm gonna have to dig myself out of this hole. I worked three jobs when I first got out and got done the program I went to. I was mowing grass and I was working at a restaurant full time, and I was working on the weekends at a farm market. I did everything I could, and I might have had $15 a week to spend after all of that for a couple of years. And it just took the response of me saying, Okay, I'm gonna dig out of this and I'm gonna work hard. Like you said, it's a personal responsibility, and it did take some time, but then after I'd consistently did that, didn't back away and run from it, man, things started happening and stuff started breaking through, and I got stuff paid off and I got off parole. But it took a lot of hard work.

Justin: That's what Dave Ramsey says all the time. How do you eat an elephant?

Guest: One bite at a time.

Justin: One bite at a time.

Guest: And that fear, you that fear runs us back. Yeah. A fear, I can't do that. It's too much, it's too big. I can't, you have to start and just work at one thing in a time.

Justin: Yeah, and I I think I've seen too, man, like the the intimidation factor of the pile. But then on the other end, like, like I've I've got several people that I know personally that I've seen, like it seems like they're afraid of success. Like as soon as they start to experience some freedom, they start to experience this new life and and start to live successful, it's like they run from it. You you know what I'm saying? And and even more so, like they start to rebuild

Early Warning Signs Of A Slip

Justin: the relationships of families, and then as soon as the family starts trusting them again, it's like they disappear, they take off again. And and it's such a weird dynamic. And I've I've I've always tried to put my finger. Look, it's not necessarily fear, maybe it's fear of failure, but it almost seems like a self-sabotage. It's like afraid of success. You know what I'm saying? Have you ever seen that?

Guest: Yeah, well, I even so I was telling somebody the other day when I started going through that program and I got saved, like right before I got saved, I had Mark Hubble trying to help me, and I was determined to get sober. I didn't want Jesus at the town, but I was determined to get out, be a good dad, try to be a father again, and reconnect with my kids, and not get high. That was my only goal. And I remember having Mark like constantly writing me up and constantly pushing at me. And and my thought process went to exactly what you're saying. I thought, well, you know what? I'm trying really hard. I don't know what's gonna happen if this works. And so I started cussing Mark out every day, getting in his face, trying to make him fight me, so then I could blame him for getting kicked out of the program. It was the whole self-sabotage thing. So I know as an addict and alcoholic, when we were in that lifestyle, that's just built in us.

Guest: Right.

Guest: And I think a lot of that now that I'm 15 years the other way, it's what we identified ourselves as. You go good for a while, and like, okay, now I know it's coming, I know it's coming, I'm just gonna make it happen.

Justin: Yeah, there's got to be a mentality that like like we're not waiting on the other shoe to drop all the time. You know, like people actually like that shoe dropping is people wanting to walk with us, not kick us, you know, and trying to understand that there is there is some rebuilding. But then also on the other side of that, like not sabotaging, right? Not not intentionally blowing things up because it is that control thing. Control is a is a big thing, and especially especially when we've been without control for so long, then we try to step in and control what we can. And and and that ends up ultimately leading us back into this cycle, man. And it really is a cycle of sabotage. It's what it is.

Surrender, Step Three, And Control

Justin: There's a cycle, it's like we'll have we'll have this breakthrough. The Lord will do something in our lives, we'll start to experience the new life. That fear slips in, right? And then on the other end of that fear, as soon as we start to feel things maybe getting a little difficult or or things getting better, then we step in and we sabotage it because that's how we take control. And then we find ourselves back at the bottom again, needing another breakthrough. And and wondering, you're exactly right, how how do we how do we get there? So if you had to pinpoint, I know it's probably different for everybody, but just broadly speaking, like where do you see people start to like slip first? Or what would you say is a warning sign that somebody may be starting to spiral again and and fall back into this cycle?

Guest: You know, and it and it depends if you're just talking recovery, if you're or if you're talking a Christian that's walking with Jesus. Um so I just had this talk with somebody that just slipped. Uh and it's funny because I've had the talks before. Well, it's not funny, but when I've had the talks before with them, I would tell them these things. And last night they came and talked to me. And and they slip with porn, is where they slip with. You know what I mean? Like they've their addiction they've been pretty good with, but they'll fall back when all hell breaks loose, they'll start watching porn. And so he said, Hey, I'm gonna come to you now because I'm gonna admit something. I did mess up, but I've already repented and I've already taken it to God, and my heart's clear, and my conscience is clear, and I know where I messed up. I didn't take the thought captive as soon as it came, but I ran to God this time. And he said, You know what? I started looking back, and you know where it started. I'm like, Well, and it's the same thing I've been telling him every time it's happened. I notice I quit reading my word. I quit doing this. And I'm like, see, that's where it is. Like we have this, you know, and in the recovery world, it's the maintenance and it's the steps.

Identity In Christ Made Practical

Guest: I get it. And for us as Christians, it's five things, and you know how I am. It's like the word, prayer, worship, fellowship, and witnessing. Like you have to encompass five things that keep you healthy, healthy, and you have to do them. And so every time I talk to somebody, that's the first thing I say. I'm like, hey, did you quit reading your word? Yeah. I'm like, see, you you can't quit doing that. This is a full-on lifestyle thing.

Guest: Right.

Guest: And so I think even that guy though starting to notice, hey, he's right, I stopped reading my Bible, and then here I am. I didn't take the thought captive. Yeah. Like we have to be constantly filling ourselves up with the word and time with the Lord in prayer and worship. And so that's always my first thing. When I see somebody, like if you you know, now we got social media world. Yeah. When I notice my buddies, I don't see any scripture going up, and they're not posting anything about that. They've kind of isolated, not posted anything in a while. I'm like, yeah, what's going on, you know, or the things they're posting aren't godly, you know. Yeah. And and you don't hear them, and when you talk to them, they're not saying anything about the Lord. So it's like that relationship when it starts to disconnect, that's usually the first one.

Justin: It's like when somebody tells me that all they're seeing is half-naked women in their social media feed, and it's like, well, you know the algorithm only feeds you what you've been clicking on. So maybe stop, maybe stop pausing so much, you know, when you pass uh you know, a video.

Guest: It does. It only takes a couple seconds look, and now that's gonna pop up more.

Justin: You you pause over an image once, you click an image once, and then that's all it's feeding you. It's just feeding you all kind of all I get right now is Bitcoin content, you know, because I've been following a lot of Bitcoin influencers. My Instagram is Philip Michael Anthony nonstop.

Guest: It's the only thing I stop on is his little clips. It's him and Billy Graham, and I'm like, oh.

Justin: Yeah, your Instagram. So you can you can kind of do that, man. But that's good. I mean, there there are signs, and and I think that social media thing is a big one because I could always tell when somebody disappears off social. Yeah, like like when they're not talking about the good things in their life anymore, you know there aren't as many good things to be sharing. And I'll and I've had people respond sometimes and say, Well, I was just trying to take no, you weren't trying to take a break from social media because most addicts, most former addicts, when we're doing the right thing, we are happy to talk about it. We want everybody to know we you know we want to share pieces of our life with people, and um and that sabotage starts and that slip starts. And so, man, really trying to be intentional about that. And um, my brain just went down the rabbit hole for a second. Hold on.

Guest: And if they're not with Jesus, then are they connecting with their sponsor? Are they talking? Are they coming to meetings? You know, I mean, there's a difference in the two. Hopefully, you can get that one over to Jesus, but if not, you know what I mean, still

Surrender Meets Daily Discipline

Guest: help them where they're at and what their recovery problem. And you look at he was talking about that fear and all that that uh before, and that's step three, is it? You talked about control. Step three deals with your control. Yep. You know, the same way that we commit our life to Jesus and surrender to his will, step three is asking you to surrender your will to God. Yeah, and if you don't let go of that control and let him have it, that was what always tripped me up in my 12 steps. I never really did step three.

Justin: And there's there's got to be some honesty, right? Like when we know we're spiraling, you know, you know what I'm saying? And and and we're talking to people, like like really taking that look and acknowledging, like I am starting to spiral. Like, like your buddy, for instance, he he recognized, you know, what what was happening, he recognized that this is this is gonna mushroom, this is gonna get worse, right? And so the repentance, the confession, the conversation with you, like all of that to stop that cycle from getting worse, you know, and being able to have the honesty and integrity to do that is really it's a it's a sign that things are changing.

Guest: That's what I told him. He's like, I I feel I was like, don't feel bad. Like you actually, like God wants you to run to him every time you mess up, not a way, and you just put everything out in the light. You already talked to him, you didn't even have to tell me, but you held yourself accountable to tell me about it and admit it. And I mean, that's progress. Yeah, huge progress, especially about that, because people will talk about drugs and alcohol, but they won't talk about the force.

Justin: No, no, no, not at all.

Guest: That's the huge issue.

Justin: And if you need some help and making sure that you're not spiraling, don't forget to hit like and subscribe to the channel so more content comes across your feed. So let's talk about rebuilding afterwards. So let's talk about rebuilding. We talked a lot about identity earlier and um and and how how there's really got to be a change, right, in identity. We've got to understand who we are in Christ versus who we used to be. So, what truth about identity did God show you during the process of rebuilding your life? Like when when did it like become real to you that I'm not who I used to be anymore? This thing is actually true. I'm different now.

Guest: It was crazy. Um, mine's you know, not everybody has the encounter that I had, you know. I mean, some

Building Real Accountability

Guest: radical thing in the prison system.

Justin: And real quick, I'll drop the link to that conversation that Rob and I had where he shared his full testimony. If you want to click that, and you can go and watch and hear about the entire story. Rob and I talked for probably a good hour in that other conversation, but go ahead, man.

Guest: You know, and it was it was instant that he took the mental illness, the drugs, the alcohol. So in that instant, in that encounter, like that one look in his eyes, that completely changed me. Like when I knew I didn't need my medication and didn't need any of that, so six months later and getting out of prison and going to this program, though, then it was like, okay, uh that happened, but now what? How do I keep this and how do I stay this way? And it was really like him pointing me to the scriptures and getting to know them and then reading 2 Corinthians 5 17, you know, anything, anyone in Christ, a new creation, old things pass away, and all things become new. That sounds good, but what's that really look like, you know? And I started getting faced with issues from my ex where it was she had every right to hate me, you know what I mean, especially worldly wise, not knowing Christ. I was a horrible husband and a horrible dad, and wound up with a 10-year prison sentence and left her. So like she had every worldly reason to hate me, so I'm not blaming her for that. But she was a bit extra and was still angry at me. So it was a rough confrontation getting my kids back. And I know what the old me would act like in that situation. Yeah, you know, and I just remember my pastor saying, Listen, because I had to go to court dates, and literally she had every every cop and everybody on her side and all that, and I remember thinking, God, I have everybody against me. I'm going in there with just myself. Right. How in the world am I ever gonna come out of this? And I just remember one, the pastor, when I got saved in prison, gave me Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, trust the Lord with all your heart heart, and no lean on your own understanding. And I remember thinking about that scripture and then acknowledge me and it and I'll direct your path. And so I wrote that scripture down on a piece of paper and put it in my shoes, and like I told you this before, and literally walked on that scripture and physically stood on it in them courtrooms, and God was just saying, Be still and trust me, and I'll do it. And it took I mean, it was like a year of that, and I looked back after all of it and I thought, I don't know how you done this, y'all. But I never flipped out, I never cussed anybody, I never argued back, I never even defended myself. I sat there and took responsibility for things that were my actions to the judge and to her, and I apologized for my actions, but I stood there and never even tried to recount and argue and point at her or anything or blame her. I took responsibility and I walked out of there with God's favor and getting my kids back in my life, and I just remember thinking, I don't know how you changed all of that.

Guest: Yeah.

Guest: And it wasn't like I said, okay, God, you gotta change my attitude. God is just I just spent time with him and I started getting in the word and learning the word and learning who I was, and that changed that. And then probably a huge encounter that I had was at a power and love conference, and I just remember Dan Oler and Todd White praying for me, and I don't even know what they said. I mean, I barely knew who they were back then. I was just at this big conference, and the Lord told me to run. These they had a fire tunnel, people were falling out everywhere. The Lord had me run all the way to the back and lay underneath this this seats. I don't know why at first, but I did it. And I lay there and I had this moment with him that I thought was like 15 minutes, it ended up being two hours, where he literally just audibly spoke to me and said, Stop striving, I love you, you're my son.

Guest: Yeah.

Guest: Stop stri and it just went on and on, like I love you for who you are. You don't have to earn it, you don't have to do anything, you're my son. And something broke in me.

Justin: Yeah, so in that in that moment, I'm hearing, I'm hearing you talk about like a place of surrender, right? And surrendering to the Lord. But like, how does surrender and discipline work together? Right? Because it seems like surrender, the whole idea of surrendering is that we've come to the end of ourselves. Uh uh, an army only surrenders because they can't win the battle anymore, right? Because they've acknowledged that that I'm gonna lose. On the other end of that, though, how does discipline come into play? You know, when we're surrendering to the Lord, what what part of discipline did you have to uh, you know, yeah, walk out?

Guest: Okay, so just say you get to that point where you give your life to Christ. It's just the way I feel and how I feel like the Lord's dealt with me. So you get to that point where you say, Okay, you're Lord, I surrender, I give up, which is what happened in prison. But then, like, I believe true surrender requires a response. It's not just yay, I did that, now fix everything, I can just sit back. If you truly make him Lord of your life and surrender, then that means you're submitting to his will, not yours, and you're gonna look how this kingdom operates, see the rules and regulations of the kingdom, to walk in, to be in, and so that requires a response out of my heart because I've surrendered. Now I need to be obedient and discipline myself to be in the word and spend time with God. It's not just, yeah, I come to church one day a week and I'm good. No, if you really mean that and you really surrender, it requires a response.

Justin: Yeah, that's good. Your submission is very active, right? Submission is it's not it's not like a wrestling match where I've been, you know, I've I got they got the sleeper holder on me and I've been beaten to submission. But submission in the Christian sense is very active. It's a it's a choice to submit, you know, even as we do to our spouses, submit yourselves to one another, right? And and that makes that's decisions that got to be made every single day in regards. I can choose not to submit to the will of Christ anymore. I can choose to walk away from it and and I'm done. But that submission process is really good.

Guest: We were talking about Ephesians 4 earlier, you know. And anytime you look at the way when Paul describes these things, and Paul was one who had the radical encounter, right? On the Damascus Road. So his encounter required a response. He's always saying things like, put off the old man and put on the new one. Yeah, there's a different thing. Throw off the old, get rid of your old stakey clothes. My pastor was preaching on that Sunday, but then put on the new righteousness robe that you have. So it it does require something.

Justin: It's not just you throw off the old and don't do anything, it does require you actually putting on something unless you're so let's talk practical speaking as we as we wrap up and kind of land the plane on this conversation. Um, how does somebody hold themselves accountable, right? They're they're fresh into this process, they're trying to rebuild, they're trying to keep themselves from self-sabotaging and slipping back into this pattern. Maybe they're fresh out of a rehab program or you know, been in the celebrate recovery or whatever they're doing for a while. Like, how does a man hold himself accountable and in the first you know, couple months of this journey of trying to live in that new identity, trying to be the person God's created them to be?

Guest: Uh I think that's simple, although we don't like it. Probably don't want to hear it. But I still do it to this day. Uh I'm just telling you how I I called three people when I had a decision to make. So I think the real reality of how do you make it, because people ask me, How have you made it 15 years? What's been some of the biggest things you've done? And it's this simple thing. Find you three people that are where you want to be, that you see walking with Christ like you want to. Maybe, maybe they've come out of addiction like you have and they've rebuilt their life. Well, find that person and ask them, hey, will you help me? And if if you say yes, I'm gonna say yes to give you access to my life and permission to speak into my life when I need to hear it. And so when I have a decision, I'm gonna call you. So you have to you have to put yourself out there vulnerable for three people that you feel are where you need to be, and learn from them, listen to them. I I just literally, my daughter just got married, you know, and they're living with us, and I sit down with them, they're a young couple, and I'm like, I'll give you very simple advice for not just God for anything you want to do, whether it's a job or whatever, a career, find the person that's doing what you want to do. Ask them how they did it, listen and put it into practice. Yeah, like it's very simple. So if you you want to hold yourself accountable, find three people that are men of God, or if you're a woman, woman of God, and ask them if you can have some time of their life where they'll pour into you and you give them permission to do that, but you're gonna have to listen to what they say. Yeah, you're gonna have to take their advice if you want to be where they're at. That's part of it. And then give them I mean, I've been winning step in my marriage. You know, so if you got a porn issue or a lust issue in your marriage, man, give your wife full access or your husband full access to your emails, your passwords, your messengers, everything. My wife answers some of my you know stuff still today because she it's just on her. Right my stuff's on her phone too. So make sure. Give yourself fail-safe things to hook yourself to people that will hold you accountable, but then you're gonna have to not get mad at them in this.

Justin: That's that's the interesting part. It's like if we if we have been to rock bottom, I never understood this. I I've I've I don't struggle with transparency with people. Like I had people in my life, there's wisdom in a multitutional council. I picked that up from the very beginning. That was one of the things they taught the recovery program. I went to and and I held on to it. Like I I always felt it was better to expose myself than be exposed by somebody else. Like it just seems to make sense. Like, if I'm struggling, let me address this. But like, um, where was I going with this? Like, there is there is that responsibility. I never understood the pride. Like, the people close to me saw me at my absolute worst. They saw me with needle marks all up and down my arm, they saw me 100 pounds on mess and all that stuff.

Guest: Wow, we look horrible.

Justin: Right. Like, so like I'm tempted in this moment and I need to confess it. How is that worse than where I was? Five, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not, but it's that pride slips in. And so if we really want to like hold ourselves accountable, like we have to acknowledge that pride and deal with it. Yeah, kill it immediately so that we don't we don't like think more highly of ourselves than we ought to, as the scripture says, right?

Guest: Jesus also says, deny yourself, pick up your cross. You gotta deny yourself and that me, me, me, poor me attitude, like all of that. You gotta get rid of that pride.

Justin: And and it is you're you're spot on. Like, who is gonna be in your life? I remember a couple months, the last couple months I've been been kind of like taking some personal time, not answering my phone as much. And like, man, after a few days of not answering, you like kept calling until I picked up the freaking phone to make sure I was okay. And and I appreciate that though, like everything's fine, I'm working through some stuff, but it's like that that persistence, you you know what I'm saying? Like, hey, Justin's not answering us, something might be off. Let me just check on him to make sure he's okay. And having those people in your life is extremely helpful.

Guest: Oh, just like I said, I still have them, and and I still look for him. Like, if something happens and there's a season where I get shifted, I'll find another one. Yeah, keep myself around people that are where I want to be, and I love to to grow from.

Justin: Yeah, that's awesome, man. Well, I appreciate it, man. And um, yeah, so I hope this conversation was helpful as you start to work through this process and and not allow yourself to self-sabotage and um man push yourself out of breakthrough. God has so much more for you. And so, man, I just want to encourage you go back through this conversation and really just try to, if you see yourself slipping into this mode of um man, self-sabotage, just take one honest step today. You don't have to do it all, you don't have to fix it all. You're gonna it's gonna take time to rebuild your life. It's gonna take time to put things together, but like you don't have to destroy it just because you're uncomfortable in the moment. Things do get better. God has called the Bible has promised that I've come to give you life and give it to you more abundantly. And so there is freedom and there is hope. Thank you for watching, and we'll see you again soon.