How I Stayed Clean for 13 Years (It's Not What You Think)

Framing The Conversation: God Or Self

Justin: I was just thinking to myself, it's really important to understand when you are struggling or you are trying to find good systems for yourself, that ask yourself this are you focusing on God or are you focusing on yourself?

Guest: Welcome to another episode of Rebuilding Life After Addiction. Justin Franich here. I'm here with my friend Rob Grant. Um, if you guys have been on the channel for a while and you scroll way back about a year and a half ago or so, you'll see a bunch of conversations about me and with me and Rob as we started this journey together. And um, man, two years later, we're not on the other side of a Zoom screen and we are here in person having a conversation. How are you doing, man?

Justin: Man, I'm pretty good, man. Um, it's been a blessing, uh, long journey traveling from California all the way to Virginia. Uh, but we're here. We made it, we're excited. Um, and what God's gonna do on this next season.

Guest: Yeah, man. I'm excited. Well, we were talking off camera a little bit before, and um, we were calculating, and because I'm coming up on my 20th year since I went to Teen Challenge, and you said you got 13?

Justin: Yeah, 13.

Guest: So that's 33 years of sobriety between the two of us, not just sobriety

Two Journeys, 33 Years Of Freedom

Guest: recovery, but like freedom in Christ, right? And um I just want to think about like this topic of not just long-term freedom, but there are a lot of systems and a lot of processes over the years that we've kind of added into our lives to fuel not just getting off of drugs, but personal growth, right? Because I think there's there's that one battle of getting free, but then it's like, how do I actually establish a full life? Right, right. And Jesus talks about I've come to give you life and give it to you more abundantly and that more abundant life. And I feel like sometimes people really never get there. And so um, man, if you're watching this, whether you're new to your recovery journey, you're still trying to figure this out, or you're chasing it, this is going to be an excellent conversation for you. Um, one of the things I've learned over my lifetime is that when I have a chance to get next to people who are a little further along on the journey than me, there's a lot of growth. You know what I'm saying? And so I really hope that as we we talk about this, man. So let me ask you a question

A Pivotal Early Recovery Moment

Guest: to kick this off. What's a pivotal moment from early on in your recovery journey? So let's rewind 13 years ago, right? If you can. And as we get older, it gets hard to remember. But are there any pivotal moments in that early journey? You know, not necessarily a hit rock bottom met team challenge, but like when you were really trying to put life together, right? Rebuild that life after the addiction. Do you have any remember any pivotal moments?

Justin: Yeah. Um wow, that's that's huge. I I think if if I look back, I was in the program and I was doing an internship. And um, I had this little room in a dorm with other students. And uh I remember praying and asking the Lord for direction and guidance because I was actually afraid to leave the facility. I didn't know what was going to come about, you know, uh the next season or journey of my life. I thought that if I had left, I'd stumble back into the same systems that I knew for so many years prior to coming into Teen Challenge. And so um I remember the Lord speaking to me. Um, and when I went to chapel service, there was a family, um, I'll never forget them, but Brenda and her husband, um John, uh uh I forgot their last names, but they they came to the facility on numerous basis and uh poured into us as students. So they were like our spiritual parents, if you will, on the campus. And it was just an amazing encounter that I had with them and them being able to pour into my life, but they connected me with a gentleman by the name of Chris Ron. So, Chris, if you do happen to hear this, you are a huge impact on my life and the the path and the journey that I took in my Christian faith and walk. And it was being able to be connected with him and going on a mission trip to Africa that I witnessed his lifestyle. Not just what he spoke from his mouth, but the way that he lived

Systems, Training, And Battle Readiness

Justin: his lifestyle within his home, the way he raised his kids, his devotional time, but more importantly, his prayer time. Yeah. So he taught me the value of having great systems within your Christian faith, not so that you can have this outward appearance of look what I'm doing, but so that you're aligned and and and um redirected back to the right path. Reminds me of the scripture that uh John talks about when he says that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: So I stopped depending on myself so much and like, hey, what can Rob do to sustain a lifestyle apart from Christ? Yeah. Rather than saying, Hey, look, what am I going to do to live a life that's centered in Christ and dependent on him to lead me into the past and the journey that he has set forth will?

Guest: So yeah, it's good. It made me think of um Jocko Willink, he's a Navy CEO's bonum podcaster. But I think I it was him I heard say um he was talking about military service and going over and getting put in the heat of battle. And he said, you know, when it comes to battle, you rarely rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training or your systems. There you go. And I mean, that's really what you just described, right? It's this process of like, like when we're going through the heat of the battle or going through the really difficult times that we're facing, um, you know, coming out of out of addiction and all of that, you've got to be intentional putting new systems in place, right? Because what typically happens if the new patterns haven't been established, then we revert to the old ones. And it made me think of when I first got out of TC, I'd I'd been clean a year at this point. I was home and um I faced my first loss coming home. My grandmother passed away. Wow. Literally within three weeks of getting home. And I share this story often because that that night that I was dealing with the grief. We had buried my grandmother, you know, and she was great, man. She was such a solid woman of God. And, you know, oh well, she's

Grief Test And Choosing New Paths

Guest: with the Lord, and everybody says that. And while that may be true, that doesn't minimize the grief that somebody's walking through when you lose somebody, right? And um I had um I had a friend reach out to me and invite me to a Krishna worship concert. The same night, I had an ex-girlfriend reach out to me and had two choices. I ended up choosing to go to the worship concert because it was about, I mean, it was not that it was a difficult choice, but it was about like, okay, this is my new life. I need to go be in the presence of God, and I need the chance to meet people who are gonna help me stay sober. Right. Going to that concert that night, there was a young lady in the back in the driving that car, and I sat in the back, that young lady I'm married to now, the four kids. Wow. And that was the beginning, right, of that journey. That was a pivotal moment, and it was establishing a new, new system. And so, really think about that. And um, like, man, I think people struggle with that because we in in the recovery world, a lot of people, whether it's teen challenge or any other ministry, celebrate recovery, AA, NA, whatever, we can all get really good at doing program. Yeah, right, doing the system when we have to. Right. But what did that process look like? You said Chris helped you, you know, establish and see new systems. What type of systems did you start to establish separate from Team Challenge, right? Real world, outside of the rehab center.

Justin: Yeah, that that's actually really good. You know, and so I I think a lot there there was Chris and another uh gentleman by the name of Jerry. Um, he actually helped disciple me apart from Chris outside of the program.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And one thing that he would always do was send me scripture every single day. And I would never respond. It was like my devotional time, right? Like I would read what he sent, but I would never respond and be like, amen, or thank you, or so on and so forth. And it wasn't until I actually moved up here in 2015 or 20, 2014, um, that I met a brother named Rob who lives up in, I think it's Woodstock, but he would send me scripture as well. So I was getting scripture from Jerry, I was getting scripture from Rob. And then it birthed something in me because as they were filling me up, yeah, I was living out of an overflow. So I was able to fill them up with scripture. Yeah. And till this day, I send probably a text to about 50 people of scripture every single morning. It's become a ministry

Real-World Spiritual Systems

Justin: one for me because it's taught me to have my own personal quiet time. Yeah. But it's also taught me that there's somebody else on the other end that needs to hear the exact word that the Lord's giving to me because they might be in a broken or uh a fallen state. Right. And it's a reminder to say, hey, look, you've got to be in the presence of God. You got you gotta be in your word, right? And so, like at first I was like, you know, that this was boring. Like, like, why do I have to continue to do this every single day? But I also remembered that when I wasn't doing it, it's when I was slip and fall. Yeah, you know?

Guest: Yeah, it's really good. I mean it goes back to that, I think that that appetite piece, right? We have an appetite of the flesh, we have a spiritual appetite, you know, and it's it's choosing which one you're gonna feed. Right, right. And my wife says that all the time. Right.

Justin: She's like, which which wolf is greater? Yeah, the black one or the white one. And people will always inherently say the black wolf. Which in our eyes, right, earthly eyes, we're like, oh, that's dark, it's it's you know, it's it's has a lot more force. But she's like, no, it's not the one that's white or black, it's the one that you feed the most. Yeah. And so who are we feeding? And so we're no accustom to the systems that we had prior to coming into Teen Challenge. And so when we leave Teen Challenge, I think one of the things that a lot of people fail to do is find new friends.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah, that was the deal breaker. I mean, that was the game changer, not deal breaker, but game changer for me. Was like that that decision, right? It was, it was I'm choosing to go feed the spirit rather than the flesh. And in doing that, I met people that were going to sustain me. It's like, I mean, life prior to rehab and recovery looked like you're going out to party, right? Where like now I've got friends that I'm getting together with and we're holding prayer meetings.

Guest: Yeah.

Guest: Like that's our idea of fun. Right. Like, you know, like let's see who can outpray each other in the basement of the center. You know, and that that was just a shift, you know, in life. And it was that that desire to start feeding, not not the desire, but the decision to keep feeding the spirit consistently over and over and over. And I I even noticed we were talking about this earlier, like even now in my life, the the one area that keeps coming up years later still, is that when I'm going through something, the battle with isolation. Like I still battle with that, you know. And now it's not, let me rephrase that, it's not isolation and going on a binge. That part of life's gone, but still the desire to isolate, you know, it's still there. And having to fight through that and remind myself, like, dude, you gotta get

Feeding The Spirit And New Friends

Guest: out, you gotta get up, you gotta go do something, you know.

Justin: Right, yeah. And I think I can attest to um what you're saying. Um, you know, uh one thing I want to make very clear on this podcast is that I have not arrived. I don't think Justin believes that he's arrived. I think that we are still trying to figure this thing called life out. Um we're constantly being rebuilt in the identity and the image of Christ. And um one thing I've actually been reflecting on, Justin, is allowing the Father to love me. And allow him to love me. He teaches me new systems, he teaches me the ways in which he walked and how he lives his life so that I can also live that same life for myself. And I see that in parenting today, right? I think that kind of grew me up pretty quickly. Um, I I tell this story to many people that I talk to, but had my wife and I not gone through um uh uh a marriage retreat called A Weekend to Remember and and shout out to the Patrick's that you know bought us our first ticket, we would have probably been divorced. Now, hindsight looking back, I'm like, I laugh at the kind of arguments that I had, but I had great systems in place and people and resources in place, which is i.e. the new friends that actually help guide you to create new systems, right? And so um uh me parenting today and and teaching my son and teaching my daughters and teaching my kids, what's remarkable is is that they see what I do and then they mirror that. Yeah. So it's like the the longer you're in proximity to the father, the more you'll understand the systems that the father does and wants of you, right? The thing is if you're absent from him and you're not in proximity with him, then you don't know what he's doing. Jesus says he says, I do what the father does, I speak what the father speaks, I do nothing on my own accord. And so the thing is that we're always as former addicts trying to do things on our own accord. Yeah, we want it our way, right? Like you can't tell me nothing is a phrase that we would often say. And especially from someone that was homeless and has done life by himself for so many years. My issue is that I don't really receive help, right? I want to do it myself. And so I've had to learn to receive the help from the people around me because that's what God has brought community for.

Guest: Yeah, it's a that's a big, I mean, that's a big struggle, right? It's on there's that, there's those two extremes. Either we on we get to this place of like neediness

Community Over Isolation

Guest: and we never learn to do anything, right? We never learn to build our own foundation, right? You know, we're we're basically eating off a bar of bread all the time. Right. And or the other side where we get this like ridiculous self-reliance where we don't reach out for help. And and life is later, right? Life is rarely on the extremes. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Real growth really happens kind of in that messy middle that's right in between both extremes. And um, and so that yeah, that's so let's get practical. Like practically speaking, you know, it's easy for us to say this stuff sitting 20 years, 13 years removed from it all, right? So for the for the individuals that are, you know, maybe in recovery or early on in their journey right now, right? Like you mentioned that whole process of of friends. And so what about an individual who doesn't have any Christians around them? Like, you know, because a lot of times when we're in the middle of this in the in the early on days trying to figure out life, all we see are the barriers around us, right? And we can't see the opportunities. Right. So, how does somebody shift that mindset to start seeing, you know, the opportunities to build community when they may feel like they have nobody?

Justin: Yeah, um, that's a loaded question, man.

Guest: It is a it's a big one.

Justin: I I think first and foremost is that what many people don't do once they leave Teen Challenge is they don't get themselves connected to a church.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: Right. And so the thing is, is that you're you're not going to pursue something that you don't desire.

Guest: Yeah, but Rob, I can't find the right church. I mean, everyone I go to, the worship music's not good, and you know, and nobody nobody has my shared experiences, everybody looks different than me. You know what I'm saying? If the church is nearby me.

Justin: Well, I I have to push back on that, right? Because I'm a black man that's constantly in a white community of churches. Or I I I I feel sorry I said that on the podcast, it probably sounds a little crazy, but often at times I am the token black guy, right? And so I'm often uncomfortable in a lot of circumstances and situations. But what I had to realize is that my sobriety meant more to me than what others thought of at. I mean, right? And so if I'm willing to remain pure in my state of sobriety and wanting to get connected, if I truly want what it is that I'm crying out for help for, I'm going to put myself in uncomfortable positions and and just start with a simple hello. Right. Or maybe even you ask someone that is that you are connected with, maybe your family, you know, your family friends, maybe maybe you start there, like point me in the right direction. But there's there's so many resources out there that there's no room for excuses anymore, to be honest with you. Like, I think the thing is that we could have the pity party and have the woe

Church Barriers And Honest Pushback

Justin: is me. And why is this not working? Why is that not working? This church does this and this church doesn't do this. It's like there's a church for everyone. Right. The thing is, is that the problem is you. And I think the reality is that we have to come to that, that, that point in our lives where you're taking you wherever you go.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And until you change your mind and have a renewed mind to see the church through God's eyes and not through your eyes, it's always going to be perverse.

Guest: Yeah, it was that Paul that said, not that I have already obtained or achieved, but I press forward. Right. And and I think that's the even in something as simple as choosing a church, like sobriety recovery is not a destination, it's a starting point. And if I'm constantly concerned with personal growth, maturing, getting getting better in this world, growing in my faith with Christ, becoming a more complete and mature person, yeah, then everything, everything can change and grow with me. So I say that, I know that kind of seems random, but I say that in regards to the church, because even picking something that may not be perfect, right? Or or ideal, maybe you have this idea of what a church should look like.

Justin: Yeah.

Guest: But just go somewhere to start.

Justin: And I could, I mean, if I'm honest, right? Um I I had that issue. I was a fresh young believer. I didn't know the Lord. I didn't grow up in a church. And I would read the text and I'm like, hold on. What I'm reading in the book of Acts does not align as to what I'm seeing around me. Yeah. I I just couldn't wrap my head around what the church actually was until I realized that the church wasn't a building, it's the people.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And I think the thing is that we put so much focus on the building rather than the body and the people. Yeah. And if we put more focus on that and building those relationships and learning to see each other's differences and how you might compliment somebody and vice versa, they compliment you and your weaknesses and so on and so forth. Then you're able to realize, okay, look, I'm I'm doing this together collectively as a whole to help me achieve one common goal. Right. And so I don't know if that helps. Yeah.

Guest: No, that's good. I think it goes back to like the the recurring theme over the years has been, you know, people. And the 12-steppers say people, places, and things all the time. You know, the recovery group, they always talk about that people, places, and things, you know, as as areas that that you need to look at and address. And I

The Church As People, Not Buildings

Guest: think for most of us it is trying to find that community to get engaged with, you know, trying to find that that place. But then on the other side of that coin, like I think if I look back over 20 years, like one of the biggest drivers of my success has been the desire to consistently help other people. So like I I got, but then I gave. Right. And and I think that, I mean, we were talking about names that we both remember from years of doing this work and being involved in teen challenge ministry and like realizing over the years, there are a lot of people that I helped, and that, you know, we both helped and helped get their lives back together. But there were a lot of people over those years that I was helping, and they didn't realize that in the process, they were also helping me grow. They were helping me mature. You know, every every student was a life lesson, you know, for me personally. And so that aspect of like putting the systems in place to help maintain the sobriety, but like we didn't receive this to hold on to it. We received it to give it away. Wow, right. And and yeah, it's that's been one of the big battles over the years, not battles, but I think encouraging and rewarding parts. And I I can just name all name. We were talking of a few shared people, and then you know, even talking about some of the ones who didn't make it, yeah, you know, earlier. And it's just like, but consistently, this ability to help others has been so huge.

Justin: It reminds me of what Jesus told the disciples, for it has been freely given, so freely give.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And I think the thing is that when you've been given, especially if you've been struggling with addiction for so many years, and you've then been set free by the grace and mercy of God, like why wouldn't you want to extend that same offering to someone else? Right. Paul talks about how we've been given the gift or the ministry of of reconciliation.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And the thing is, is that that moment of freedom and the shackles and the chains being taken from you is the opportunity that you now have been given

Give What You Received: Serving Others

Justin: to go and reconcile the relationships that may have been broken because you no longer stand as the old you, but you are now the new you.

Guest: Yeah.

Justin: And so what gets people the most, I think personally, in this relapse cycle is a loss of their identity. And it took me a while to get through systems and um um uh mentorship for my mother that she's allowed me to realize who I am in Christ. Yeah, and even over a decade later, 13 years, I still wrestle with who I am in Christ. But I'm reminded through the text as I open it up daily that I am new in him, that I am his child, that I'm his beloved in whom he's well pleased, right? That I'm the head and not the tail. And I have to constantly strive to put aside the old and behold and take on the new.

Guest: So let me let me ask you that that identity question. I want to I want to go into that a little bit more. Um so what does that look like when it shows up? Right? Like they're struggling with identity and the recovery and relapse, that process, and and kind of what is somebody, what what are you experiencing, what is somebody else potentially experiencing when they know they may be they may be dealing with an identity crisis or identity issues and not just using drugs. Yeah, right.

Justin: Like I think for me, for the longest, um and and when I speak identity, I'm not talking about changing your outer appearance, right? This is not like a plastic surgery kind of thing. This is being okay with who you are, right? And I think sometimes we mistake the fact that Peter was a fisherman, and though he was saved, it didn't take him away from the having the identity of being a fisherman, right? And I think for many of us, like we struggle

Identity In Christ And Relapse Risk

Justin: with who we are as a person, and we think we have to be like the pastor, like the deacon, or like the worship leader once we become saved, and it's like, no, you're okay with just being the clerk at the grocery store and you're okay with making minimum wage if that's what ends up happening throughout your life, because that does not take you away from your relationship with God. And I I think so often at times we strive for this success, if you will, or live this American dream. And then when we obtain it and we get the accolades and we have all the trophies to show for, we think that that is what's going to uh fulfill us when the reality is what truly fulfills us is the identity in Christ. Yeah. And the acceptance of who you are. Yeah. Because you you don't have to change, like you start thinking and doing things differently, but we have to understand the sanctification process, right? He justifies us, then he sanctifies us, but it's a process, right? And then we are glorified with Christ when he returns. And so um, this process of change and the renewing of the mind can only be done through the reading and the washing of the word. Right. So the more I take God's word in, the more I'm washing away the lies that the enemy tells me is you'll never amount to anything. Remember what you did in the past, all these different things. It's like you've spent all these, you stole from your parents, you've done all these wrong things, and so on and so forth. And so you you live in the past and not in the present. Yeah. And so your old self is constantly rearing its head, and then you think that that's who you are. And the reality is it's like, no, that's not who Christ calls you to be anymore. You are a new creation in Christ. The word is gone. Behold, all things are made new, but we don't believe the truth of God's word.

Guest: Right.

Justin: And so we've we we we have this idea of subjective and objective truth.

Guest: That's good. Yeah. Yeah, that that identity struggle, man, is is so so key. And I I think wrestling with it and even still realizing where it pops up, you know, like even as we per as we progress, like like I'm I am only experiencing this season of life for the first time. Always. Like that's so good. Always experiencing a new like I turned 40 this year. Wow. And um sucks for you, dude. Yeah, man, it's it's crazy. But I had like a really like a crazy moment last week when I dropped my 16-year off at work for the first time. I'm like, holy crap! Like, she is close to leaving the house. And you start to like, as you start to get older, I remember hearing old people talk about this when I was younger, and I would think they were crazy, but now you experience it and it's like, man, like time is flying by. Where did 16 years go? And so start thinking about these next seasons of life and like like like who am I in this season, you know, and trying to trying to sort

Contentment, Sanctification, And Truth

Guest: through some of that stuff, you know, it's it's crazy.

Justin: And I think too, if if I could just add to this, I I think often at times what ends up happening for me is I get locked up in or wrapped up in my identity when I start looking at the lives of others, yeah, neglecting what I have right in front of me. Yeah, that's good. I've had so many times where people like Robert, when I thought I had nothing, they're like, Rob, man, dude, I I love your marriage. Dude, you have such beautiful kids, like you have an amazing life. Yeah, but I didn't see it that way because I was missing something. And what I was missing often at times was wrapped around finances, right? Right. Or the lack of not having a home because I'm renting right now in this season and I don't have this or I don't have that. And I I remember my wife and I would always say it was an ongoing joke, but we would always be like when we first got together, only if we had this, things would be so much better. And the reality is, get this, guys. If you get nothing else from this, the system in the in the from this podcast is if you understand that you possess the creator of this universe, the one that has formed you in your mother's womb, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, he resides within you, the Holy Spirit, the paracleton, the comforter, the helper. He's more precious than silver and gold. Yeah. When when you gain a revelational knowledge of that, then you begin to realize that nothing else truly matters. Yeah. But the enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And he wants to remove that truth from you so that you can fixate your attention on everything other than fixating your attention on Christ. I was just thinking to myself, it's really important to understand when you are struggling or you are trying to find good systems for yourself, that ask yourself this. Are you focusing on God or are you focusing on yourself?

Guest: Yeah, everything that you just said there. I mean, I've quote, I quote this verse all the time, but James 1, 2 through 4, consider pure joy, my brothers and sisters, when you face trials of various kinds, knowing that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. This is the part that I love. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. Then he goes on to say, if you lack wisdom, ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault. Wow. Like I'm not even looking at your identity. Like I know who you are. You're my child. I'm not finding fault. I'm not finding the fault in you that you find in yourself. And it will be given to you. Then ask, you will not doubt. But man, like that's it right there. I mean, that is literally what you just said in a nutshell, right? It's that that

Aging, Comparison, And Perspective

Guest: process of like as we start to pursue this journey. Man, there have been innumerable challenges over the last 20 years. Like, and I I know there are these people, there are these people that get clean, and they like 10 years later, 20 years, like, I've never wanted to use a I never thought about relapsing in my life. Like, I never thought about getting high again. Yeah. And maybe, maybe they did.

unknown: Yeah.

Guest: Like, but there have been some moments over the years where I wrestled mentally with possibly blowing my life up. Yeah. And I think because like we understand that it is a process, right? There's a perseverance, there's a maturity being built in us. And it's in the testing, it's in the trying. It's the systems, we typically don't decide to establish a system in our life until we experience the hardship of not having it.

unknown: Wow.

Guest: Right. And so like I learned to get on a budget once I got tired of credit card bills showing up. Like I learned to handle my money a little better. Right. Right. That's so good. I I learned to um yeah, yeah, just so many things, man. And I can keep going on and on and on, but like getting control of my schedule and kind of cutting the phone off at certain times when I experience the tension of my wife being frustrated that I wasn't present when I was home in the evening. Like, and so we experience these trials, we experience these things, and then through that, that's when we start to establish the systems in our lives, you know.

Justin: And if I can speak to the fatherless, because I was a fatherless child. Um that was a big what's the word that I want to use? That was a big part of who I become in a sense. And there's many people that have present parents or active parents, if you will, but not present parents. And just for anyone that's dealing with um the loss of a father or doesn't even have the father in their life, I I think often at times we just want to hear um, I love you, or I'm proud of you. Yeah. Um, and and I think hearing those words um audibly can do so much to an individual. Yeah. And it takes them so far. My girls just look for affirmation from me. My son just wants to see me smile when I look at him. Yeah. And

Father Wounds, Affirmation, And Grace

Justin: to know that he I am proud of him. And and and if you're listening to this right now, I'm I'm I'm not your father, but I want to let you know if no one has told you in a very long time that I I love you, right? Um, that you are love, that you are precious in his eyes. And I think the thing is is that you can't look at your shortcomings as the end all be all. Right. Yeah. Those are opportunities for God to come in because he says in his word, his grace is sufficient. Yeah, his strength is made perfect in our weakness. And so systems are put in place for God to intervene in those moments to reveal himself so that you understand who he is in your life and who you are in his.

Guest: Yeah, it's you know, crazy talk about taking Chloe to work and on just the smile on her face when she got out of her interview. And I got the job. And she came in, I got the job, Dad. And I'm like, I'm like, man, what a way to go. You killed it. You know, I'm proud of you. Yeah. And just the way that she just lit up like a Christmas tree, you know. And it's just like, I knew you were gonna nail that great job, you know, and just simple things like that. But but we were talking about that earlier in regards to leadership, and just like even as you walk along in this journey, like like even leadership can be a lonely place. Yeah. And having without people in your life to speak, you you know, I know for me, like I those moments where I feel like everything's falling apart, yeah. And then I bring somebody else into it, and they're like, dude, what are you talking about? Things are fine. Yeah, and I'm like, no, but the world is burning, you know. And they're like, right, you're doing a lot better than you think you are, and having those people be able to speak because our mind is so easily like deceived and manipulated by the enemy if we're not careful, and so um and it doesn't help too, like with social media.

Justin: You always see everybody else's life in their highlight reels and stuff, and yeah, you might not have any, you didn't go on any vacations that year. Like, dang, why is why is Sharon always going on vacations? And Jim is he's always having fun, and you're over there like on your couch eating popcorn, right? And so, like, you don't really feel like your life really amounts to anything. And um, Greg Hammond was one of the directors for the uh team challenge um back down south, and he always used to say to me, he said, Rob, you can never encourage a man enough. Yeah, nobody's gonna say that you're encouraging me to death. And I think the thing is it goes a very long way just sharing

Encouragement, Leadership, And Social Media

Justin: a simple reminder to your brother and sister in Christ who they are. He was the first person I've ever heard teach Roberry and Sandals. Yeah.

Guest: Oh my gosh.

Justin: Yeah, it crushed me.

Guest: Yeah, I was like I was one of the few sermons that I've heard of that. I'm just crying in the middle of the preaching. Like that dude was such a good, such a good communicator, man.

Justin: Right, yeah, yeah.

Guest: Well, man, thank you guys for jumping in. And I just want to encourage you if you're uh new around here, hit the like button, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment down below, and uh we're gonna be getting together more and doing more of these. I'm here for the for the long run. Lives in Virginia again, and um man, if if you're new here again, hit the like button, subscribe to the channel. Thank you for tuning in and leave us a comment. Let us know what systems that you put in your life that has helped you along this journey, or maybe what systems you're lacking.

Guest: We'd love the chat.